Stella Marrs

Interviewed by Mariella Luz

[00:00:00] Mariella Luz: My name is Mariela Luz. I'm with the Olympia Music History Project. Today is Thursday, June 12th, and it's 11:08 AM , Olympia time. Stella, would you like to introduce yourself? 

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[00:00:13] Stella Marrs: Hi, I’m Stella Marrs. I'm in Burlington, Vermont. 

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[00:00:18] Mariella Luz: Awesome, okay, well let's get started. So, how did you end up in Olympia and what encouraged you to stay while you were here? 

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[00:00:24] Stella Marrs: Olympia has been a home base because it was close to Fort Lewis and my father was in the military. We ended up here when I was a teenager. I went to high school at North Thurston, which was a block away from the Martin Way/Sleater-Kinney . 

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[00:01:45] Mariella Luz: And after you graduated from high school… 

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[00:01:47] Stella Marrs: I didn't actually graduate. I ran away from home and I ended up in the military for all of the basic training cycle. Myself and about 10 women were pulled aside one night and they read us charges that we were under "suspect and investigation for lewd and elicit acts between females". This was in South Carolina, and it was a southern boy kerfuffle, oh my god. We were all honorably discharged together at the same time, at the end of this training cycle. So that's me getting out of high school. I lived in Seattle a few years next,  and eventually I ended up at the Evergreen State College.  I loved the College.I came and went to it through my early twenties-- college, living downtown, making things and traveling out and back. I got enough traction and confidence at the college that I was an artist and was able to figure out how to make a living because of the college. I kept being able to live in a way that I could keep thinking and develop. 

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[00:03:31] Mariella Luz: And how long did you live in Olympia after you came back? 

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[00:03:34] Stella Marrs: Well, that's just it. I would do projects and then I would go and travel with those ideas and do things in other places and come back and keep developing my work forward . When you asked me if I would do this interview for the Olympia Music [History] Project, I knew I wanted to do it, but how did I fit into this music project? Being that– I was in a few short lived bands.That was fun, but I never had the confidence to really be  just a musician. I have a funny memory of being with Calvin and Tim Brock and they come to my studio with a drum and are trying to get me to play a steady beat on it. I was feeling pressure to perform and didn't understand how people could be on tour and play the same songs over and over. I knew I would never survive if I was in a group situation where you're supposed to do the same thing every day, according to external standards of what is expected of you. 

Anyway, when I was thinking about what I might contribute to an interview in this context–I started to think about the girl work that I had made. The girl work: "Female Voice/ Female Space" is the through line of what my work has always tried to be so I thought I should try to talk about that. This work comes out of two experiences; the military basic training cycle and The Evergreen State College pedagogy. The military freed me to be an Artist because the whole point of funneling these young humans institutionally is to blindly follow your chain of command. Towards destruction. That truth suggested ANY act of CONSTRUCTION was a valid gesture. So I was free to just make art! The Evergreen classes were process and consensus driven, encouraging and generating social power for individuals to apply to systems. I took these ideas as a formula to make art works. The first Girl City was out of my art studio, it was just for the month of December. It was the room that was the front area of my art studio. I painted the walls gloss black with one wall aqua. I had been pulling analog TV sets out of dumpsters and mining them for the vacuum tubes and the different metal pieces inside that were so sculpturally beautiful looking. I stripped those wood TV cabinets, and painted them gloss black and assembled them in front of the gloss black wall with Christmas lights strung through them. I made handmade products, and featured these products in these TV sets that had been turned into display casing. There was a little portable record player, and 25 cent records from Aberdeen. I would play them on Saturdays and have an open studio. That was the first Girl City. The next Girl City started the following summer. There was a small storefront we could figure out how to get into. I'm standing on Fourth Avenue and I'm kind of pulling a Judy Garland, “Hey kids, let's have a show, here!” and pulling in these different girls and some guys, who ever was around. So that was between 10 and 20 people for a six month period as part of that Girl City. We met and imagined a three month event as a store, and we would make performances, dance parties and product lines. The intention was to keep it open for three months, but we stretched it into six, which coincided with the end of the year. We didn't have any money. It was the early eighties, and that was a dire time with Reagan having come into office. Our initial steps toward this goal was four of us having a car wash, at the Eagan's burger drive though, up Harrison Hill. It was owned by a sympathetic cowgirl that agreed. We made flashy glittery signs and screamed “Car wash!” against the traffic coming up the hill. Then we took what we made and went to the manager of the Angeles Hotel, and asked if we could rent the space for the weekend to put on a garage/ bake sale to raise the first month's rent for the storefront. Our community came together, and we did that. It was this very thin space on 4th Avenue with a little bathroom in the back. It was next to an alley that you could step out to smoke or have a conversation. I watched one of the town's boys walking up to the event carrying a plate of cookies he baked to contribute. Having grown up in the army in cascading locations, as an army brat, this was profound to me. This drive to make Girl City- I wanted to keep working within the Evergreen recipe as I had just graduated. Assemble people, get them focused on a goal, define a contained moment of time to execute a project. It's social and driven by the group’s interests and dynamic. The fun comes with the communal process of consensus problem solving. I think that model was how classes at Evergreen were run in general. This template was repeated in Olympia's business lives incubating co-ops. The Olympia Food Co-op is a great example of that. The background political reality of Girl City was that Regan had just come into power, and the worst recession since the depression was starting. One person in Girl City would go home to her parents house every day for lunch. There was a lot of empty dead time and not much opportunity. My reaction was; we have all this time. Let's use this time, let’s make something! So we became Girl City and made rules and systems and had weekly meetings that anyone could come to and propose what they would want to make and sell at Girl City. Each member would volunteer to work a two or four hour shift to keep the store open during the stated hours. We had weekly meetings. Initially, the plan was to keep it open just for the summer- three months. We extended that timeline to the end of the year- to six months. When our energy started to lag and people might not show up for their shift, I came up with a sign that stated: Store's open when the TV is on. We had a little TV in the window, facing the sidewalk. We closed at the end of December of that year, in the black with $150 in our bank account. The surplus happened thanks to Toni Holm and Dana Squires. They had oversight and the knowledge and clarity to set up simple, functional systems for us. Their involvement streamlined the requirements for us to be a nonprofit. They made us screw-up proof. When a member or volunteer made a sale, there was a chart for the amount sold and its correct sales tax. You would write both on the sales receipt, and make the change. The sales tax would deliberately go into a pink ceramic piggy bank that we had next to the register. We always had our tax. It was right there and you couldn't forget it. Everyone was able to follow that without having any problems. Sure, I remember the meetings being drawn out and sort of boring, but things would happen over time. Some things that different people made: Dana Squires made these beautiful paintings with vibrant pastels and brilliant primary colors of girls, flowers and nature, on giant, cotton beach towels. Gorgeous! They were strung through the long white space and billowed like ship sails. They were the only items in the space at that moment. It felt like a very cool gallery with a California beach girl vibe for a moment. The stylish Jan Loftness would sit in her lounger chair and make postcards using National Geographic magazines and glued index cards on the back of chosen images. They were successful and sold so well that pretty soon we all started making cards. We had a stationary section in Girl City, it was something anybody could do. We would even have little parties where we'd make cards, or workshop different projects together.I really attribute those card sales to us closing in the black. Candy would get lacquered and become jewelry. Some of the early record labels are on the ledgers. Mr. Brown Records, and the Op Magazines, and I think Sub Pop makes a brief appearance too. I only know this because Marie Barker went to business school after Girl City, and she sent me a copy of a report she had made about Girl City, and it's such an amazing resource. It has Xerox copies of the hand drawn ledgers of how much each person made and how it broke down-where the money went–we're talking pennies--week by week, how much each person got paid. $2.59. $4.74. $15.25. It's unbelievable. And it was all in Dana's unique handwriting! I remember watching Marie Barker with a hammer, breaking Christmas ornaments because she was gonna use their shiny broken shards to fill in vinyl sewn objects that she was making. And Marie was this pre-goth, almost,  but Marie was kind of the closest thing to goth that might have existed at that time. And so for her to go through Girl City and break Christmas ornaments and then go to business college, it was life changing. And I think I've always held onto this idea that if women can survive from the things they make themselves, there is better power and control to arrange their own lives. And so I was always watching this process wondering “How will this work out?” Toward the end of the store, we were all focused on this idea we were going to have a fashion show. Everybody was making lines of clothes or some sort of performance for this. I made a line of clothes that I thought of as post World War III. The fabric came out of Kathy Doherty's grandmother's basement. She had worked at Boeing during WW11 and had yards and yards of olive green satin. I made all these quilted jackets and pants that were lined with floral flannels. They were very cozy and comforting. I applicated metal bolts and washers into the intersections of the quilted thread grids with some pearls on the fronts of these jackets. The runway was constructed out of concrete blocks with long boards on top of them along the wall. The models walked these planks. My piece had a classical music background, and the models would walk and then stop. Then they’d pull a nail out of their coat pocket and grab their high heel to use the tip of the heel as a hammer. The sound of the nail going into the wall next to them, was perfect with the music. So much play. I love remembering the materiality that we were all playing with. 

I think I'm going to talk a little bit about the postcards that came out of this Girl City world for me... is there anything I've talked about, Mariella, that maybe you would want to ask a follow up question about? 

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[00:28:27] Mariella Luz: Yeah. Before you move on to the postcards, maybe, you spoke a little bit about this idea of using the word "girls" and how it sort of came about, from a personal standpoint. Can you maybe give us a little bit more context as to why that seemed so contrary to what was happening at the time, why it meant so much to you to use the word “girls,” other than just being an experience you had  when you were younger? 

[00:28:56] Stella Marrs: Sure. I guess I felt that to have to censor yourself from using the word “girl” also meant you had to censor yourself from having fun, because those two words in my mind are intertwined. When girls come together, and they're in public, they sometimes laugh hysterically and can make a lot of noise doing that. I see this as creating a shield around themselves for protection around themselves and their work. One way I think about the works I make is as exploring this dynamic of Female Voice/ Female Space, pointing to how much space are women allowed? How much voice can they have? 

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[00:30:07] Mariella Luz: When I think about the context of Girl City and how, like you said, the contrast of the wave of feminism that came before it–and I guess I think of like the seventies women's liberation feminism–was very serious, and maybe because it had to be. And it took itself very seriously, and sort of eschewed this idea of girls. And so for you to sort of take it back and be like, "This is the way that I want to, consider my own identity, separate from this other movement," I think is interesting to me–especially in its relation to punk and Olympia community specifically. Like you said, it kind of evolves over time, and every movement evolves over time. 'Cause then another 10-20 years later, we see this whole idea of girl power that came up in the nineties so that younger women could sort of embrace whatever their joy, their femininity in this way that wasn't as serious as what came before it. In my mind, you know, there's a through line. Also to just really quickly say, when talking to you and, and wanting to have you to be involved in the Music History Project, I think for those of us who have lived and participated in community in Olympia, we understand that the music scene was not ever separate from this other art and community scene that exists here. They're all intertwined, and so your contribution to what was going on in Olympia at that time was very impactful of all these other things. They're all connected with one another- the art that you made, the storefront of Girl City and the community that you built and were friends with. And these projects that you guys were working on, they were not siloed in this one thing that was separate from what was going on in music at the time, you know? And we've heard through other interviews how impactful that was for others. 

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[00:32:17] Stella Marrs: At some point, maybe in the mid eighties, going almost into the nineties, I got this idea that at the core of everything productive in Olympia was the parties. Lots of different women were having parties, -thematic parties. Parties as an art form in a small town where you had to make your own entertainment. They offered a place to dance, socialize and explore spontaneous performative moments for people. Everybody could be involved with these parties in one way or another. One of my very favorite things that ever came out of Olympia was the Red Horse Cafe. When I think about the Red Horse Cafe, I remember Ariana Jacob and Khaela Maricich and Mirah. It was in a small little one room studio apartment with a small kitchen. I’m not even sure whose apartment it was. They would spend the day cleaning, moving furniture and making food. People would come at dinner time when it started and "play restaurant" for the evening, Ordering from the "menu,” sharing tables. You would leave with a new friend and agreeing to be part of someone's project. This spirit of generosity and sharing with the meal extended into the next week in our lives. People left high and happy. It was a lot of work to make this happen and it was these women that did that labor for their community. When you were responding and talking about the question of the girl versus the woman's lib and the woman fighting back, I'm having this flashback of media images from that earlier time period of the 60s and 70s and how definitive they were in terms of "Now we say NO!" I think in a way, Girl City is the boomerang to that 60s-70s moment-"This is what we say YES to." And still in my heart there is desire for this; a beautiful, huge open space that has light and freedom to play and you can hang and make projects with others… that's always an aspiration to me. So what else, Mariella? What else do you think that we wanna think through?  

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[00:35:05] Mariella Luz: That's great. Yeah, let's talk about the postcards. 

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[Part 2] 

When I graduated from Evergreen, I just wanted to travel and see what was out there. How to do this and survive and have your time was a question. So I started with the postcards. It was a means to income and a route to circulation, hand to mouth. As a tactical move toward power, I would go through the National Geographics and look at both sides of the page to see which perfect picture I should use. If a picture is worth a hundred words, which side means more? These two women in silly hats looking at a newspaper and laughing, or cowboys, stunningly dressed, standing on tables branding a ceiling in a bar? These images hold gestures that contribute to a collective psychic atmosphere. We were limited in using the Geographic between about 1956 to 1962 through the image size of the photos-they worked with the index cards perfectly, and the ink on the paper in those years did not offset onto the next card. These four-by-six-inch size index cards were sold in every drug store in packs of a hundred, so it was easy to control production without a fuss. I developed a way to wrap the finished deck of new cards in black construction paper, and would use colorful thin telephone wire that was amply available in urban dumpsters as the telephone companies shifted their technology, they were ripping out these wires all over America at that moment. My mysterious black rectangle postcard brick was an easy sell. I would drift into boutiques, bookstores and gift shops and ask for the buyer. I would place it on the counter in front of them, would they like to see my postcards? They would undo the wired ribbon that was shaped like a bow on the gift-like rectangle and open the black flaps to be greeted by a hundred different saturated images of Americana that was both familiar and strange. Then they would pay me, usually in cash, and I would depart. Sometimes the transaction was quicker than if I had to go to a bank. I did this traveling the U.S. for a couple of years, and each new city I would go to its art museums and galleries, often couch surfing, sometimes living in weird places-- like office buildings, or art studios. These were our ramen days. I remember Kathy Doherty and I didn't have forks on time, so we carved some out of carrots. In the early eighties, Kathy and I played and worked together in Olympia, San Francisco and Boston. As young girls, we definitely survived together through our giggling forcefield. The images from the National Geographics and these locations that we lived in, what we witness on public transportation and our conversations blended into trying to feel our way into what was an ethically aware and political active modern American woman. “How can we create a model, the psychic space and impulse to makeshift reality and culture?” Unknown to us, at this moment Post Colonial Theory was being formulated in Academia. 

I'll read you a short definition for Post-colonial theory:

It is the critical academic study of the cultural, political and economic consequences of colonialism and imperialism, focusing on the impact of human control and exploitation of colonized people and their lands. 

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We didn't have this language but we were feeling and seeing our way through trying to reinterpret these images in the National Geographics. We did a body of work named Texas/Africa which set up an indexical comparative system to think through these two different cultures. What were their similarities and differences? 

This Texas/Africa thinking spawned the 50 Girls, 50 States: Women For World Peace project we did in 1986. It was a large scale parade entry sculpture in the Olympia Lake Fair Parade, the summer of '86. Pretty soon after we started it, Kathy became pregnant and she just of showed up to the parade. I was kind of on my own to pull it off. With all our dumpster diving and traveling we thought: Safari America! a country that's so rich and so wasteful that you can live on its garbage. And so that was like a proof of concept to live by for us at that moment, basically. Squatting, living on the garbage of America that way, and trying to think; "If this exists in Texas, what's its counterpoint in Africa?" Living in Boston and riding on the subways and being able to talk to people from all over the world…starting conversations with people from Africa on trains, trying to understand what people's lives were like and what they thought about. I had hitchhiked to where Kennedy was assassinated on the 20th anniversary of his death in 1982, to get to Boston. That was my intersection with Texas. After circling back to Olympia, I'm sitting on the bench with Julie in Sylvester Park and she says, “How many of those postcards have you made?” I did this mental inventory and tally. And I had to admit I probably made about 30,000 postcards by hand. And I could spend a day making postcards, walk into a store and sell them- walk out with cash faster than it took to go to the bank. 

My answer to that question stunned me. This hand-to-mouth lifestyle I had lived had served its purpose. I had my freedom and circulated by my wits and mostly my time had been spent on park benches making postcards, in coffee shops, on public transit and in museums and galleries. 30,000. That number gave me pause. And so I decided if I was going to keep making postcards, I couldn't keep doing it by hand. I had to print them. So there was another girl work that builds on what I've described here. 50 Girls/50 States Women for World Peace.. But I feel like that's a topic for another time. 

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[00:12:01] Mariella Luz: I would love to hear about that other project at some point, 'cause I think that it's a fascinating and interesting one for sure. 

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[00:12:07] Stella Marrs: Yes. You know, it's so wonderful to be paying attention to this early work. I was always working forward as fast I could- so I hadn't given the past much serious thought. It's a good moment to do this reflection for me. It seems necessary in terms of going forward. So thank you. 

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[00:13:08] Mariella Luz: I have a couple follow-up questions of things that happened later. Do you have any projects that you had considered before, in this thinking process?  

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[00:13:24] Stella Marrs: I think it would be really cool to talk about 50 Girls 50 States, but I don't have it in focus in the same way. I kind of wish I did this for this interview, but I just spent my time basically working with Girl City and knowing how the postcards come out of it. Let's see, maybe I could say a paragraph or two about 50 Girls, 50 States. 50 Girls, 50 States for me personally was a project so involved and so big and so impossible that it was completely at a different scale. After the event I felt like I had gotten married to this idea of women activating politically in public space. After it was over there were many reflections to process as successes and failures. I remember locking the door in my studio and taking the left over bottles of pink champagne and not leaving for about four days.

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[00:14:35] Mariella Luz: Where did the idea come from? 

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[00:14:37] Stella Marrs: It came out of Kathy and my relationship. The formal title is 50 Girls, 50 States: Women for World Peace. And for me personally, because this project had that title, as I fought with people to make this event- I couldn't outright fight with them. I had to learn how to engage and move a situation around to what I thought it could or should be, but not make anybody angry or feel dissed. I had to check myself and understand what is a political tactic here at this moment to have a certain outcome and also to be involved with this many people. 50 Girls, 50 States was exponential because also there was raising money for a piece of music for all 50 states from businesses downtown. I tried to delegate, but then half the time that would fall through and you're finally like, "Oh, I should just do that myself, ‘cause then I'll know it's done." For me it was a primal, giant group process, learning about what does and doesn't work. 

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[00:17:41] Mariella Luz: I mean, I think that the whole point of this project is for us to write our own stories and not have them written for us. You know, the narrative and who gets to decide what stories are told. In this situation we're deciding that we get to decide what stories are told. You get to decide what gets put in, what gets left out. And I think that that's so important. Girl City, its first iterations were over 40 years ago and we haven't stopped fighting for our rights yet, our right to belong and our right to exist. So I think it's really so important for people to write these stories down, 'cause otherwise they might not get told, and they're so important. 

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[00:18:29] Stella Marrs: Yeah. Moving away from Olympia, it was really a culture shock to keep remembering and thinking about all the things that had happened and the way they happened. 

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[00:18:55] Mariella Luz: I have other questions that you may or may not be prepared to talk about. One of the primary topics that comes up in this music history project is the International Pop Underground. And I'm

not sure if- I feel like you were involved at least in some part in the first night of the IPU. Is that true? Do you have any memories or stories that you might be interested in sharing? 

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[00:19:27] Stella Marrs: Yes, I do. I remember pre IPU when there wasn't a "Girl Night" on the schedule. Looking at the New York Times, there was an article about a cartoon show producer, that they discovered that if a cartoon had a female protagonist, it wasn't going to be watched, but if it had a male protagonist, people would watch it, and just being so mad about this idea and the way it was affecting future programming. What I remember is going to Calvin, he was a friend, and venting, "Look, this is outrageous. You really need to have a night that's just women musicians as part of IPU. And apparently Tobi [Vail] made some sort of similar agitation, and then there was a girl night added to Thursday night on the schedule–the night before the program started. I remember there were 25 girl bands and I paired up with the other two Dohertys: Margaret and Maureen. We played one song; “Where Have All the Flowers Gone?” That was our band. Jenny Olay jumping around alone on the stage in a white suit and electric guitar as if she was Jean Smith and David Lester [Mecca Normal] person, morphed into a new being. That was Epic! The bands did not stop coming! And then at the end of the show when we were leaving, wobbling out of the theater and stunned on the sidewalk, I see Calvin. He says to me something like "We just had IPU, we don't even need to do anything else." 

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[00:21:29] Mariella Luz: 

I love that. Okay. I think we have in theory two questions... the first one is–and we were just sort of talking about this–how do you navigate telling your story? When you're thinking about writing this story, your story and thinking about this work that you've done, how do you think that that differs from the other history of what happened at this time in the like eighties and nineties? 

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Stella Marrs: 

I've never thought through what I made and how it might differ from other histories. I don't know? I can speak to what I was doing in the 80s, but in the 90s I was a new mom with a kid and business that was growing. Those two realities were my total focus. In the 80s I was working from my vision and desire to marshall women into the artframes of Girl City and 50 girls to build community so I could make the world I wanted to live in. This was very subjective. 

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[00:23:59] Mariella Luz: I guess I was thinking of more like- now we have this sort of longer view of history. I think punks and other people who were maybe more radical in the eighties could see how gnarly the Reagan administration was on the face of it. Because there was no such thing as social media, Reagan era probably felt pretty rosy to a lot of people who were mainstream America, who were living in it. But now with a little bit of distance we're just like, “Wow, that was such a fucked up time that we were living in.” And you were existing in creating art and sort of a response to what was happening politically at the time. So not specifically Riot Grrrl, but sort of the context of a broader geopolitical perspective and how the work that you're doing is in response to that, not so much what happened afterwards, if that makes sense–and how even through the eighties in Reagan and through the nineties with Bush, how people were, making art, and like you said, sort of rejecting this capitalist narrative that was really being foisted upon us by mainstream media. How do we live outside of that? How do we create work in communities? And I think this also ties into this idea of girls that was not really meant for us, you know? Like, where we're like in a society and culture that doesn't value us and our work, and how do we continue to exist in spite of that? Which I think your work is an incredible example of that. 

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[00:25:41] Stella Marrs: That's interesting. This last part when you were saying that, I was just really flashing on this class I'm going to teach for the third time, which is a fashion wearables class. It's an upper level art history class at Champlain College in Vermont, and I'm teaching them how to look at the history of fashion as a visual culture language and break it down and reuse it and ideas in it for their own articulation. But I'm also really teaching them how to take whatever they can get their hands on and use that to make projects with. I try to shift their approach to capitalism- but many of them are already there. They do not want to buy new materials. "I don't want to go to a store." It's not automatically 'cause they don't have money…they have a larger world view. 

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[00:26:36] Mariella Luz: Yeah. They're smart. You know, you have a child, as do I, and it's just interesting to see how ideas shift with these next generations or things that were so ingrained–I don't know a better word–is not even considered by younger folks, you know, which I think is incredible and super inspiring. Do you have anything else that you wanna add right now? 

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[00:27:06] Stella Marrs: I will say this. Since I left Olympia, which was in 2005, we keep coming back to it every couple of years, and I feel like there's really amazing energy there again right now that I hadn't felt for a long time. It might be about at what point in the year I visit and how I intersect with it, and the weather intersects with me. Who knows? But, yeah, I feel like there's really something wonderful happening. Or maybe I'm just starting to see great events right now? That's interesting. 

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[00:28:01] Mariella Luz: Yeah. I'm always impressed at how Olympia continues to- I wouldn't say reinvent itself, but to keep the energy. I mean, I know it's not a constant, but that there's things happening here and that sometimes, things change and new things begin. And old things end, and that's always good. And nothing can last forever. But I'm always just inspired by what projects people are working on here. 

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[00:28:29] Stella Marrs: Yeah. That's how I feel right now. I feel inspired by what I'm seeing and smelling. Well, thank you so much for thinking of interviewing me! I've been wanting to express what happened during this early Olympia history of this scene from my view point. It was great to have a deadline and a reason to work with these memories and my ephemera. 

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[00:28:52] Mariella Luz: Yeah, I feel like I could ask you many more questions and I'm not only fascinated but a long time fan of your work and I'm so glad that you took the time to be so thoughtful and considerate of the time that you spent here. And I can't wait to hear more about the thinking that you're doing.

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[00:29:13] Stella Marrs: Thank you.

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